Interview with Samuel Sells of Wild Mountain Capital
Updated: Nov 29
Listen on Apple Podcast here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/interview-with-gabe-petersen-of-kaizen-properties/id1520681893?i=1000544918098
Welcome back to the Passive Mobile Home Park Investing Podcast, hosted by Andrew Keel. On this episode of the Passive Mobile Home Park Investing Podcast, Andrew talks with Mr. Samuel Sells of Wild Mountain Capital. Sam shares his unique story of starting out in the military while also flipping houses, surviving and thriving in 2008, and the many lessons he has learned from his time investing in mobile home parks.
Sam Sells has a great mindset when it comes to real estate. He knows what to focus on when it comes to treating people right, but also making money. Those things don’t need to be mutually exclusive after all.
Sam is a retired US Air Force officer and combat veteran who founded Wild Mountain Capital in 2018 with his hero dad. The Wild Mountain team has individually owned, invested in, developed, or rehabbed 75 single and multifamily projects, and have 60+ years of commercial and residential real estate experience. Since 2019, the team has syndicated 20 development /rehab properties, creating equity growth, nearly twice the initial investment in less than two years. Projects include mobile home communities, apartment complexes, and self storage facilities.
Andrew Keel is the owner of Keel Team, LLC, a Top 100 Owner of Manufactured Housing Communities with over 2,000 lots under management. His team currently manages over 30 manufactured housing communities across more than ten states. His expertise is in turning around under-managed manufactured housing communities by utilizing proven systems to maximize the occupancy while reducing operating costs. He specializes in bringing in homes to fill vacant lots, implementing utility bill back programs, and improving overall management and operating efficiencies, all of which significantly boost the asset value and net operating income of the communities.
Andrew has been featured on some of the Top Podcasts in the manufactured housing space, click here to listen to his most recent interviews: https://www.keelteam.com/podcast-links. In order to successfully implement his management strategy Andrew's team usually moves on location during the first several months of ownership. Find out more about Andrew's story at AndrewKeel.com. Are you getting value out of this show? If so, please head over to iTunes and leave the show a quick five-star review. I have a goal of hitting over 100 total 5-star reviews by the end of 2021, and it would mean the absolute world to me if you could help contribute to that. Thanks ahead of time for making my day with your five-star review of the show.
Would you like to see mobile home park projects in progress? If so, follow us on Instagram: @passivemhpinvesting for photos and awesome videos from our recent mobile home park acquisitions.
00:21 - Welcome to the Passive Mobile Home Park Investing Podcast
00:47 - Sam’s background and his journey into manufactured housing
08:26 - How Sam stayed out of the red in 2008
11:37 - The toughest hurdles in the mobile home park business
13:00 - What is a deal that works and doesn’t work for Sam
15:00 - Park-owned versus Tenant-owned mobile homes
18:41 - Sam’s management style and company
20:35 - The most important thing passive investors need to know
23:45 - Sam’s perfect mobile home park
25:29 - Mistakes and lessons Sam has learned
28:00 - What makes Wild Mountain Capital different
30:00 - Sam’s portfolio
31:50 - Getting a hold of Sam Sells (contact information)
33:19 - Conclusion
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Links & Mentions from This Episode:
Wild Mountain Capital: https://www.wildmountaincapital.com/
Sam’s email: firstname.lastname@example.org
Keel Team's official website: https://www.keelteam.com/
Andrew Keel's official website: https://www.andrewkeel.com/
Andrew Keel LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewkeel
Andrew Keel Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/PassiveMHPin...
Andrew Keel Instagram page: https://www.instagram.com/passivemhpi...
Andrew: Welcome to the Passive Mobile Home Park Investing podcast. This is your host, Andrew Keel. Today, we have an amazing guest, Mr. Samuel Sells of Wild Mountain Capital.
Before we dive in, I want to ask you a real quick favor. Would you mind taking an extra 30 seconds and heading over to iTunes to rate this podcast with five stars? It helps us get more listeners. It means the absolute world to me. Thanks for making my day with that five-star–review of the show. All right, let's dive in.
Sam is a retired US Air Force officer and combat veteran who founded Wild Mountain Holdings in 2018 with his hero dad. The Wild Mountain team has individually owned, invested in, developed, or rehabbed 75 single and multifamily projects, and have 60+ years of commercial and residential real estate experience. Since 2019, the team has syndicated 20 development rehab properties, creating equity growth, nearly 2X initial investment in less than two years. Projects include mobile home communities (our favorite), apartment complexes, and self storage facilities. Sam, welcome to the show.
Sam: Wonderful, thank you for inviting me, Andrew. I'm so happy to join.
Andrew: I think some people may see the title to this episode and be like, oh my goodness, is this Sam Zell? Is this the man, the myth, the legend? Don't be surprised if some of our listeners are looking for a different Sam.
Sam: No worries. I wish I could say I knew him, but I've certainly read his book, and I've taken some inspiration from things that he's done.
Andrew: Definitely, yeah. Am I being too subtle? I love that. Sam, maybe you can start out by telling us your story and how you ultimately got into manufactured housing.
Sam: Back in the early 2000s, I’ve done construction for several years. I knew I wanted to go into real estate investing. It was where I wanted to go, but I decided to go ahead and join the military first and became a firefighter for the Air Force stationed overseas (in Germany). It's hard to start real estate. I came back and I was stateside with a friend of mine. We just started flipping homes, and we did three or four together. I deployed, and I kept helping them do a lot I could while I was deployed.
Then I started financing, funding, and putting together the deal, and having a good friend of mine and brother-in-law do all the construction work down in San Antonio. We were buying and flipping homes in San Antonio, and I was doing stuff with my friend up in Idaho where I was stationed at the time. It was just great. Early 2000s, doing the single flips. I was doing two or three at a time and thought, this is pretty good. I like the returns.
The crash happened. At that time, there was a little hiccup in the real estate world. It was good. We were still buying at such a low rate that we were just fine. We converted those into long-term holds and held a lot of the real estate for well over a decade or so before finally disposing of those assets.
I continued to do that while I was in the military. I just kept staying, became an officer, and then spent the last 10–12 years of my career doing global health.
I got my master's degree in Health Administration Policy, focused on global health, and traveled all over Europe, Africa, Asia, working with foreign militaries, helping them develop healthcare systems. I was responsible for building 10 or 12 200-bed facilities, 100-bed facilities in West Africa, helping do stuff in sub-Saharan Africa.
I will tell you, the development process out there is much different than it is in the States. You don't have to go get all these permits and everything else. We just go to the ambassador and work with the President of the country and say, all right, President—sort of like Johnson at the time where we were at—this is what we want to do. What does your staff think?
We would come back, then I'd go out to the locals and negotiate a location. We would clear the area with machetes, then start to get these 56-year-old bulldozers with people hanging on the side. Not a hard hat or other thing anywhere to see, and we just started building. We'd go through the schematics with engineers and source local materials. It's quite a different aspect.
At the very end of doing all that my military career, I know I'm getting out soon. I always hear stuff like this; I think this is impossible. I had $30,000 saved up in my 401(k). My dad had a little bit of money. I say a little bit like he had $80,000 in his 401(k), so very little bit. We're like, well, we need to go into multifamily investing.
At the time, I was the project leader for this $64 million rehab on a 500-bed facility, the largest US contingency hospital in the world, so a wartime hospital. I was just dramatically working on this thing. I was traveling. I think I went to Korea five times that year. We were just going all the time, plus I was doing my daytime job. Then at night, sleeping like three or four hours and just working, putting together these analyses. My dad and I decided we bought a three-plex mobile home, the only time I've ever seen a double-decker mobile home. We could talk about that in a different story.
We picked mobile homes because the cash-on-cash was just so much higher than anywhere else we could get after, and the barriers to entry were lower. I listened to the podcast. I watched a YouTube video where the guy talked about his favorite thing to do was to do these mass releases. I called this guy. We had spent $70,000 of our collective 110 in the first place and got that owner-financed. My dad had just a little bit of money left, and I had no money left because I just cashed out my 401(k).
We convinced these guys to sell it to us, even though they had full cash offers. We had no money. I didn't know where I was going to come up with $50,000. Then we settled on $100,000 on a master lease with $50,000 going towards the property and $50,000 going into the asset itself to rehab it. I refinanced the car. I pulled money out of my credit card. I did all those things you should not do.
Between myself and my dad, we came up with $100,000. We closed on this 42-unit mobile home park that was only making $6000 a month. Then my dad went out there and he just went to work. That year in the next eight months, we pulled out $130,000 into our pockets. That’s just an amazing return and we thought this is it.
Andrew: There's something to this, right?
Sam: There's something to this, yes.
Andrew: First off, thank you for your service. I have the utmost respect. Do you know Charles DeHart?
Sam: I don't.
Andrew: He was another serviceman and he tells a story how it would be two in the morning and he'd have this radio phone that he's pulling the antenna out. He's trying to call back because he was doing deals in the US. Just the utmost respect for you guys, that had to be difficult. For you guys to still be able to do deals, that's pretty awesome.
Maybe go back and tell us about 2008. I know a lot of home flippers that got in a lot of trouble back during that time. You said you turned them into long-term holds into rentals, and you did pretty well. Tell us about that. I think that's rare for a lot of the investors that were active during that time.
Sam: We targeted assets, that we would just go door-to-door and knock, and say hey, we can do a full cash offer, or we would love to buy your home. Could you sell it to us? This was in downtown San Antonio, so small little homes. We were picking them up for $50,000 or $60,000 and had a mortgage broker at the time. I'd give him a ring and say, hey, I found another property. Back then lending was easy, just super easy. It's like, okay, what do you want? Yeah, sure, I can get that for you.
Then next thing you know, I'm buying two houses. I'm E-3, E-4 in the military and have no business buying anything because my income is $1500 a month or something ridiculous, $2,000 a month. I don't know. It's terrible. But somehow, back then you could just buy stuff. You didn't have to show proof of funds. You just bought it.
We were doing these different things back then to cut down our closing costs because then you could do 95% loans, then do carpet allowance and so forth. You could really do these no money down loans with the banks. You can't really do that with the banks anymore, but there are still ways to do no money down loans. We closed on a $15 million apartment complex. It was none of our own cash in the deal, which was pretty amazing. I could tell that story in a different time. If you are creative and you understand the rules and the laws, do that. We were good.
What happened in 2008 was contracts that we had for sale just vanished. People wouldn't show up to the closing table. We had these assets that didn't get sold, and we couldn't sell them because nobody can get access to the loans. Fortunately, we bought at $50,000 and we put $20,000 into it. We were selling for $130,000.
It wasn't too difficult to do owner financing for people, which is just a different way to say I rent with a down payment, because a lot of those people who owner-finance, at some point, just want to leave. You can be a good landlord and say, okay, I'll take the property back. Thank you for letting me know, and we're going to put it back on the market.
You can't really do lease options in Texas very well, so owner-financed is the same kind of thing, or rent-to-own in Texas very well because of the rules and regulations.
Andrew: Got you. So long story short, it worked out for you guys. That's fantastic. The loan broker you had must have really set you up. I think the type of houses you were going after, that affordable housing type of spot, always had a need. That's very interesting.
Tell me this, Sam. What has been the toughest hurdle for you in the mobile home park business?
Sam: For us in the mobile home park business, it has been sourcing debt. We have found that in certain states, it's much easier to source debt for a mobile home park, and of course, location, location, location. If your mobile home park, say we have one in Lubbock, Texas, easy, no problem. One that was inland passes Texas, near Killeen, right next door to Killeen, Texas, no problem. We were able to source data 4% and they're half full. That gives us the equity we needed to continue to do some development, and so forth.
If you're talking about a park in rural Arkansas, even though the demand is there—it’s affordable housing—you can buy a mobile home park just about anywhere in the US and fill it up. At least that's been our experience. Small towns, people need housing and they'll move into that. The rate of return may be a little bit different. When you're going to a lender, lenders are really like markets, so you're doing owner finance or other things. If you don't have a good exit plan with your owner finance or if your owner finance terms are really ugly, you can find yourself in trouble.
Andrew: Tell me what type of markets. I know you're from San Antonio. What type of markets are you guys buying? When you look at a market, what's important? If you're going into some of those smaller towns, I agree. Smaller parks and smaller towns can get by, but what is a deal that works and what doesn't work?
Sam: In our first year, we bought 10 mobile home parks, which are 9 mobile home parks and a storage lot, let's say. We were just buying stuff anywhere and we sourced some that turned out to be good little places off the beaten trail, but they just stayed rented.
Andrew: Are these around San Antonio? Are these in Arkansas and just spread out around the southwest?
Sam: Yeah, we have them in six states because we were going after where we could enter, where we could buy a mobile home park for $500,000 or something, and have 50, 60, 75 lots. We have properties in Alaska; we have a mobile home park there. We have Oklahoma, Texas, Arkansas, Missouri, and Tennessee.
Andrew: Very cool. Wow. Alaska of all places. How did that happen?
Sam: It was my last duty station. You always want to go with where you are now and we found this little three-unit place and the double-decker. That thing makes us $25700 a month. Our bills altogether are about $750 a month. We clear $2000 a month on that place.
Andrew: It's three mobile homes. So it's a small park, just three mobile homes. Wow.
Sam: It has no expansion capability—the city won't allow it—but it's already there. These three homes, we keep them clean and nice. They rent out for $900–$1100 a month each.
Andrew: Are those park-owned homes? Maybe I should ask you that. What are your guys' thoughts on park-owned homes versus tenant-owned homes?
Sam: It really depends on your model. If you have the staff or the teammates who can go and do the work, then park-owned homes will make more money all day long because you can rent them. For example, we bought a tenant-owned home for $750 once. Tenant said we were idiots because he made $600 and he just made $150. We said, okay, thank you, we're not going to argue with you. We're really dumb. I'm sorry. He moved out and we rented it out for $600 a month, so we made our money back in a month-and-a-quarter. The rest of it is just cash flow.
If you're going to hold on to those things, those things last for 40 years. You have control of that asset. You can clean it up. If a tenant messes it up, you can do insurance on it for $15 or $10 a month. If you own the homes and you want to get rid of them and bring in nice new homes, you own the asset.
Now, if they're all tenant-owned homes, then you're going to have to go through some kind of eviction process to evict a 1950s mobile home that hasn't ever been cleaned since the early 1950s. It's got pigs running around outside, snakes that live underneath it, and 16 dogs that are inside. If you buy that park and you buy that home, or you don't own that home, it's difficult to get them off.
I would say, when you first buy a park, it's great to have park-owned homes. Then if you don't want those ugly homes, sell them to somebody else and move them away, make some return off of that, and then bring in nice brand new homes.
Andrew: With our model, we like the tenant-owned home model. I can see in some markets where we just bought a property in Bismarck, North Dakota. A three-bedroom rents out, just straight rental for $1250 a month. I can see where that makes sense, but like you said earlier, it really depends on the staff and the operation that you have. Personally, I prefer tenant-owned homes, easier to scale. To get volume over a couple 1000 lots, you're going to want tenant-owned homes.
I think there are some people out there, and we had Todd Salinger on the podcast, and he likes the park-owned home model as well. I always like to ask, just to kind of get the baseline knowledge of that.
Sam: Definitely more work.
Andrew: Yeah, definitely more work for sure. I think that the big problem we’ve seen, especially right now, just because we get some of the homes back, then we have to fix them up, and resell them with the supply shortages. People forget that mobile homes don't have the same materials that our single family house has. The drywall is a different size, the doors are different sizes, and the windows are special.
Everything is more expensive, especially right now because of the logistics costs. You're going to have to order these windows and doors from Colorado or from wherever and to get them transported is what's really expensive right now. That's why the park-owned home model to me, you can't just go to Home Depot and replace the window. No, you're going to have to special order this stuff and it's expensive.
Sam: It is, and you're like, why am I paying extra for this thing? Because it's not mass-produced.
Andrew: Exactly. And the faucets, everything is different.
Tell me about your management, Sam. Do you guys have your own management company? Or do you use a third-party to manage these?
Sam: We tried to do third-party in the beginning and that didn't really work out. We ended up building our own property management company, which now has 30 employees or so, which is really just park managers across the machine plus maintenance folks and so forth. The actual staff in our office, we have three people who are able to handle that load.
Andrew: That's a common theme. We tried third-party, didn't go as planned, had to build it out. From experience, I know that it's easier said than done. To build out the infrastructure is quite tough.
Sam: It is quite tough, particularly when you're in multiple states. If you're in multiple states, you can't operate a property management company outside of your own property. You have to own what you're renting, so you can fall under the correct roles. You're not breaking stuff. If not, you need to get a broker in that state with a license, then you can branch out from managing your own property to managing other people's properties.
We've done that in some states. We have three states now with broker's licenses and their own property management companies inside of that state. We're scaling in that way. It's a long and difficult road if you want to go down it.
Andrew: It is, yeah. We explored last year managing for other people. We just decided it's not worth it. It's too much work to do that.
Sam: It's a ton of work and there's not a ton of money. You're not going to get rich from property management.
Andrew: No, definitely not.
Sam: Ownership equity, that's really good.
Andrew: For sure.
Tell me this, Sam. What are the most important things passive investors—we’re talking limited partners here—need to look out for when investing into mobile home parks?
Sam: We've learned quite a few things. One of the things that we've learned is mobile home parks really attract the best of us and the worst of us. They attract investors like yourself, Andrew, who want to make a difference, who want to target affordable housing, want to create clean, safe places for people to live, and change communities. It’s deplorable how with us always, so we want to make a difference.
If you're going to invest with somebody—and you should, particularly at the beginning—I recommend partnering before trying to start your own thing, work with somebody else, be a co-GP, be an employee. Somewhere where you're going to learn the intricacies of this stuff before you go suffer all the brain damage that I did, and I'm sure you suffered a lot of brain damage as well in the beginning. You want to invest with people whose mindset is right, their team is right and understand that things are going to go wrong, particularly in mobile home parks.
Some guys walk around in the back with a crossbow on their back and a machete in their hand. What in the world is happening right now? Somebody's got to go solve that. They can't just freak out. I'm leaving.
If you as an investor, if you want to be all engaged, you need to understand that these are not pretty assets. We're going to create them and make them into pretty assets. It's going to be a bumpy ride to get there. So invest with a team that can handle that, even if you don't want to handle that. That's why we're passive investors. It's because we don't want to handle all that stuff. Invest with a team who's confident and can get after it.
There are a lot of people who are unscrupulous in mobile home parks because they know they can take advantage of people. They will not invest a single penny into that property. We like to buy properties from them because it turns out to be a great deal for us. Just do your own due diligence with your operator and determine who they are as human beings, if they're the right type of human beings. If you don't care and all you want is money, then just see if they have a good track record.
Andrew: I agree. There are people that go in and milk these things for every penny, and don't reinvest in them. Like you said earlier, we'd like to buy from those people because they're leaving money on the table. That's one of the big things, I believe, is that there's a win-win here, because when we improve these properties and put money into them, we get better financing. Fannie Mae doesn't loan on just any property. There needs to be off-street parking. There are requirements that they have that they want to see. I think taking the higher road is much better long-term for both the investors and for the tenants, and for everybody involved. I agree with you there.
Sam, what does the perfect mobile home park look like in your eyes and why?
Sam: I guess it depends what you're talking about. If you're talking about from an acquisition, it's ugly. You drive in, it looks like a tornado went through there but there was no tornado. You have some good 1990s–2000s assets, but it's just not really well managed. The infrastructure is there or can be there without too much difficulty. It's a mom and pop-owned. They just ran out of cash. Or some operators take them, get them from super, super ugly into decent, then they run out of cash and they need to sell it. You come in with new cash and take it to the next step, the next level. There are different entry points.
Now, from an operational standpoint the perfect mobile home park looks like, 50, 75, 100 lots or more, 95% full homes, clean, pads are nice, good yards, playground, all those things where people can have just a great community and love to live there.
Andrew: Awesome. I always like to see where operators take that question. You'd be surprised a lot of them start with that fixer-upper. Whatever the park needs to look like to get the investors a good return, that's the perfect mobile home park. Others are like, oh, we want 100 lots, private utilities, 95% full, the less value-add but more of the kind of stable asset. So interesting.
Let me ask you this, Sam. What mistakes have you made? Maybe you could just share one or two with us of lessons that could save the next operator?
Sam: I think I've made all the mistakes. Number one, partner with somebody in the beginning if you can, or start small. You can buy a single park. The second park that we did, we made a lot of money off of that property, and the community was doing well and was cleaned up. We stopped and thought, do we want to stop here or do we want to grow? Because now my dad and I are making enough money that he could retire, I can retire, and we will be just fine. But we decided to grow.
If you want to grow, and you want to build something really larger than yourself and your team or your family, it's going to take a dramatic amount of work, long days and long hours. I would partner with people who can help, join a mastermind or other group, listen to podcasts like yours, Andrew, and learn every minute of every day that you can. There are folks like myself, and like you who made tons of tons of mistakes and are happy to tell you, don't do that.
Don't partner with a dentist who thinks everything wrong is a cavity that's got to be rooted out and drilled. It’s terrible and the sky is ending because the previous owner buried a septic tank in the back somewhere. You didn't find out during your due diligence. Well, I don't dig holes and do due diligence, but we found this. It's allowed, let's just deal with it, and move on. They're going to say you're a liar, because you said the park was good. It is good.
Sorry, securing past transgressions, I guess. We learned from these mistakes, and we're happy to help others avoid them. Partnering with the right people is a huge thing. Don't have people invest passively, unless you're going to fall into Security and Exchange Commission rules and regulations. Don't go to jail. Make it better than where you found it. Hire competent legal advice.
Andrew: I think that's really good advice. That was very powerful. That was the episode golden nuggets right there. \
Sam, what's the value proposition at Wild Mountain Capital and what makes you guys different?
Sam: A few different things. We are always happy to partner with others. We love helping grow new companies. We've done that a number of times, helping people go from $200,000 assets, and now we're buying a couple of million dollar assets and helping them learn how to structure that and do that, what their role is and so forth. Always happy to do that.
Our focus really comes back from my days of being at global health security. It’s going around and looking at communities and trying to figure out how we improve the health conditions here.
Looking at that, you have housing security, food security, and health security, where can we make a difference? Well, a mobile home park is really the right place in America to come in and create housing security. Where else can somebody get a 1500-square-foot home or 1200-square-foot home for $400 a month, plus lot rent? Nowhere. You just can't get it. If you get to live in an apartment for $800 a month, but it's not going to be 1200-square-feet, with three bedrooms, and have a yard and you can have your dogs, you can park your three cars there, one that works, and you can do all sorts of different things. You can't do that anywhere else in America.
We really focus on building communities, changing lives, and growing wealth. We believe that if you do the work on the ground level, create value that residents are ready to pay for and willing to pay for, then the wealth comes. We've seen that and I'm sure you've seen that as well. It's at the bottom level, that's where it's at.
Andrew: Definitely. Tell us about your portfolio. I know you have one park in Alaska that's three lots. Maybe tell us a little bit about some of your bigger assets and what your average pad size is or average lot number is.
Sam: Right now we have a very mixed portfolio. To scale, we've got into apartment complexes, and we're buying 200-unit–plus size apartment complexes. We did buy an RV park. Total of two people in the RV park in a town in Texas. We bought that a couple months ago and turned that thing around. We typically look for 50 lots or more or at least capacity to improve. You do want to get to 100.
You understand, when you're scaling, there's a beautiful point where property management takes care of itself. There are really 100 lots or more where there’s enough revenue there to pay for a good staff. It's hard to operate a place that is 50 units and below, unless you just really lucked out with a good property manager.
For us, it's usually a woman who can go up and tell people that she's going to kick them out unless they pay the rent, and do it in a nice way that they feel appreciated and valued. When a guy goes up and knocks on the door and says I'm going to kick you out, unless you pay rent, people get really mad. We've learned some things about property management. There's a property manager type that we look for who has that capacity. It's much, much easier on larger properties.
Andrew: Definitely. How can listeners get a hold of you, Sam?
Sam: They can reach out to me anytime at email@example.com. Wild Mountain was a road I lived on in Alaska. When you come up with a team name, it's pretty difficult and challenging. So my wife was like, hey, we lived on Wild Mountain, let's just name it Wild Mountain. I was like, that's pretty cool because we're crazy. We're just forging a path up the mountain and bringing along everyone who wants to come with us.
Happy to talk to anyone about mobile home park investing. We do a lot of apartments now. Happy to talk to them about that. The differences, trade offs, dollar per dollar, mobile home parks, you're going to make more money every day, and make more difference, but it's easier to get financing for apartment complexes.
There's a future for us where we want to try and put together the capital to help provide loans on mobile home parks and make it easier for folks to do that. That's the future day. That's not today's day. We're stuck like everyone else, calling in, hustling, and so forth. We do not have a fund. That would be really nice, but that's where we're at.
Andrew: Awesome. Well, Sam, thank you so much for coming on the show and adding value to the listeners. That's it for today, folks. Thank you all so much for tuning in.